Transcript: Episode Four - A Medical Genetics and Genomics Kind of Bonding (Part One)
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:12:19
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Hello and welcome to the Medical Genetics and Genomics podcast from the University of Glasgow.
00:00:12:21 - 00:00:28:08
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Welcome to part two of our chat with Maria and Gerhard; the previous and current program directors. Previously, we covered the academic side of the program. In this part, Rasha and I will share what student life is like.
00:00:28:10 - 00:00:47:21
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Welcome. Where we left of earlier, we kind of started alluding to the aspect of how diverse and how, inclusive and how warm and friendly the master's program has been. I think Tian and I both have the same experience, and I think this was a very common theme throughout, even the responses to some of the more serious sciency things. Right?
00:00:47:21 - 00:01:10:12
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
The team itself is very knowledgeable. The teaching team is very knowledgeable and very kind. But they also showed us, that they created this environment for us to feel very comforted and very safe and very confident for us to raise our hands and ask questions and feel at home. I think from both of our experiences, we remember being cared for not only about, our academic performance.
00:01:10:12 - 00:01:33:16
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
But also, our general well-being even outside of school. And as Gerhard mentioned earlier, a lot of the students are actually international, some of them - for most of them, in fact, in more recent years, English is not their first language. So, you can imagine being away from home, feeling homesick, struggling with English perhaps struggling with the Scottish accent initially, those are all valid concerns and all valid issues that students go through.
00:01:33:18 - 00:01:48:21
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, I think for both Tian and I, we always reminisce, and we remember all of these different experiences we had in the master's program. And the ones that we remember, and we bond over is okay - what did you do for your activity? Did you do the potluck? Did you go on this trip? Did you go hiking with Maria?
00:01:48:21 - 00:02:08:01
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, those were very memorable experiences that we had. I guess the main point that I'm trying to make here is that there are a lot of opportunities to learn very good science and become very advanced academically, but also a lot of opportunities to bond with your classmates. And those included things like the international potluck, group activities outside of school.
00:02:08:01 - 00:02:26:07
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, we went out on trips, we went for a hike I remember with Maria, and we also went bowling that was the very first activity we did together. It was good fun. I think, I want - I like to remember that my team won, but I don't know, maybe I'm being biased. It was awesome, and I mean it really helped us.
00:02:26:09 - 00:02:43:23
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Like we built a connection with the place. We got to know the city itself and we got to know each other. So, it was awesome. You know, a common theme that keeps coming up is that how diverse and how international the program is, and we are curious. How did you factor in this diversity and making the program accessible to everyone?
00:02:44:00 - 00:03:01:15
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, I kind of touched upon a couple points here: English not being the first language, we kind of talked about, not being on the same level of molecular biology knowledge when you first start because as students joined the program, some of them have clinical backgrounds; they're actually doctors, and some of them have graduated from a BSc in biology.
00:03:01:21 - 00:03:11:02
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So how do you factor in all of these diversity elements to make sure that everyone has an equal footing when they start and it's accessible to them?
00:03:11:04 - 00:03:33:24
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Yeah, I guess part of that is having the lectures that introduce each topic. So, we’re not assuming that everybody knows about aneuploidy already, not everyone's heard of translocation. So, you're just starting with fairly basic lectures and then building up. Obviously, you're building up quite quickly. As has already been said.
00:03:33:24 - 00:04:10:09
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
It's over only two semesters that you're doing the taught part of the course. And in fact, most of the core genetics material is covered in semester one, so there's not much time. But yeah so, you are starting from scratch. We did actually introduce what we called were optional tutorials. So what we did was we, we told the students, okay, if you have a question, if there's something you didn't quite understand in a lecture, or you'd like us to go through it again, let us know and we will cover that in the optional tutorials, which I think originally followed on from the problem sessions on Wednesday mornings, if I recall correctly. I could be wrong.
00:04:10:20 - 00:04:27:23
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And students were able to tell us what we should do in those sessions, which I think was quite good. So, it wasn't us in charge of what was being done it was the students in charge of what we were covering. So that gave students opportunity to say, well, I've never heard of this before.
00:04:27:23 - 00:04:57:07
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And so, I'd really like to go through this bit again. I think that's one way you can help overcome the diversity. Gerhard has already mentioned the initial short course in basic molecular biology and the test, and then the tutorials which were offered to students who scored less than a certain amount, in the tests. This was a way of offering them some extra tuition in the basics to help them catch up.
00:04:57:09 - 00:05:30:08
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I think the diversity - there is on the one side – the diversity on background knowledge and previous experiences and work experience or not work experience on different degrees that people have studied for before joining us. That's one aspect. So, to sort of bring students onto the same level from which to build on then further. The other aspect in my view, is - and that's quite difficult with a constantly changing composition of the class, is cultural differences.
00:05:30:08 - 00:06:03:18
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
We are - in giving students a lot of, initial, introductory sessions on how we want them to write certain reports and what is scientific writing, what is critical thinking, what is plagiarism, and all this kind of stuff - trying to get everyone to get to the same level with these kinds of aspects. But it's quite clear that students from different cultural backgrounds find it quite difficult to adapt to some of these requirements.
00:06:03:20 - 00:06:33:02
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Simple things, like in some degrees, or some nations, whole cohorts of students would actually never have been exposed to certain types of report writing. All assessment was of a specific type that we don't use. So, for these students, that is a big, big change and quite an initial challenge to adapt to that.
00:06:33:02 - 00:06:58:02
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And that changes. I mean, the composition of the class, when I joined the team in 2016, a significant number of students were from Saudi Arabia. The numbers have dropped from Saudi. The last couple of years the number of Indian students has increased dramatically, so that 50% or more are now from India. But it also fluctuates from one year to the next. So sometimes you have a whole group of students from a particular country.
00:06:58:06 - 00:07:24:18
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Last year we had a group of students from Iran, this year we have none of them from Iran. So, things change. You can basically never know really what the composition will be. But then I have to admit to me it's always quite interesting. Also challenging because meeting someone from a country that you don't see many students from - means you have absolutely not the faintest idea.
00:07:24:18 - 00:07:36:05
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I personally had not the faintest idea what to expect of these students. What will their background be? What is the education system in their home country? And how do they see me as a teacher?
00:07:36:07 - 00:07:56:13
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
But sometimes you get wildcard students. I'm one of those because I did some of my education in Kuwait, so close to Saudi. But I'm also Canadian, so I did my undergrad education in Canada and then I went to the UK. And anytime someone asks where you're from, I'm like, well, do you mean where I was born? Where I live?
00:07:56:17 - 00:08:18:14
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, it's true. And the world is changing and it's very global and people are sort of moving around quite a bit. But I agree with you with that, the type of education that they would have received prior to - kind of - dictates how they may perform on the course as well, because for some education systems it's more spoon fed versus, you know, giving them information and letting them critically think through a problem. Right.
00:08:18:17 - 00:08:23:04
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So those can also be, challenges that may creep up sometimes.
00:08:23:06 - 00:08:49:15
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yes. Clearly there's some, education systems where students are not particularly strongly encouraged to question information that is being imparted by someone who is in the know. So as a teacher, you are being seen as the authority and I don't really want to be seen as the authority. I want to be seen as someone as helping a student to work towards a particular goal and reach their potential.
00:08:49:17 - 00:09:11:22
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And I want to be someone who helps and not just someone who assesses and judges and I certainly don't want to be the one who spouts wise words from up high and everyone should be just listening to what I say. But I think we thought that earlier as well, that part of the learning experience is to learn to question and ask things.
00:09:12:01 - 00:09:38:03
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
One of the biggest positive attributes of the MSc that helps cope with the diversity is actually the fact that from the first, we tell the students that, you know, this is your family, you know these fellow students in the class, they are your family for the year. And we try to foster that sense of family. Obviously, I don't know if you guys both remember Betty?
00:09:38:03 - 00:09:47:16
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Yes, and Linda and Francis, who would be there. Betty was like, almost a grandmother to all the students.
00:09:47:18 - 00:09:51:01
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Betty was my Scottish mum. I’ll introduce Betty.
00:09:51:01 - 00:10:14:20
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Yeah. So, it meant that if students did have, anything they were worried about, they could always go to one of the staff and say, look, you know, I've got this problem with whatever. And it needn't be anything to do with academic work. Obviously, when you have students from all across the world, they're totally cut off effectively from all their normal support processes and people that would support them.
00:10:15:00 - 00:10:48:16
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
We have to provide that support network. That's what we very much tried to do, and I heard you guys talking about being siblings earlier on. So, that just reinforces the idea that that's what you saw, this was one big family. We organized social events like bowling that some of you remember. And the annual trip to Culzean Castle, which was always great fun to have a day out - away from thinking about genetics and just all the students having a great time together.
00:10:48:18 - 00:11:18:08
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And the international lunch, of course, where everyone brought food from their home country. These sorts of things were what made the students feel that they were part of something. So, this was a family. These are just not, fellow students who, you maybe see in a lecture theatre and that's it. So, I think fostering the sense of family has helped our international students in feeling that they have a home in Glasgow Medical Genetics.
00:11:19:08 - 00:11:44:19
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yes. And I have certainly seen and heard comments from many students over the last years who fondly think back of their time in Glasgow and one of the things that sticks out is that for them, they have now suddenly a vast network worldwide of people that they know who are good friends, who they are in touch with, and that opens up horizons no end, I think.
00:11:44:22 - 00:12:05:01
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the friendships I build through the MSc program is a friend of mine where - just - we live across the river. So, we will bike across the Clyde Tunnel every day for lectures and that sort of set up a really solid basis for our friendship. So, I guess it can also happen not just on trips and events.
00:12:05:01 - 00:12:07:00
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
But just in everyday commutes.
00:12:07:02 - 00:12:41:04
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yeah, not much really, to generate a really class cohort mentality. I mean, sometimes you have within a particular academic year, you have a student or two who are particularly outgoing and like to organize stuff. A few years ago, we had a student who appeared a bit like a party animal to me as a teacher, but she was obviously very helpful for the whole class to generate a coherence that was actually probably stronger than in previous years because she got the whole class, “let's do this and that together.”
00:12:41:04 - 00:12:49:08
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
“Let's this Friday we will do..” whatever it was. And these kinds of things generate groups that are stable for a long time. I think.
00:12:49:12 - 00:12:50:06
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah, absolutely.
00:12:50:07 - 00:13:11:19
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Actually, there is also the Facebook page. There was one particular student, I can't remember which year it was. It must be about ten, or so years ago at least. It may depend, when Facebook started. But anyway, this student, when we were communicating with students before the start of term, this particular one said, oh, I'd like to set up a Facebook page.
00:13:11:19 - 00:13:32:05
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And then that's what he did. That Facebook page, the group, became available before the start of the year, so that all the students were invited to join it, and they could start getting to know each other before the start of the year. Which I think, again, was quite nice for those that engaged with it, because they could start learning about the staff.
00:13:32:05 - 00:14:02:13
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, each of the staff would post something about themselves or their pets or whatever, what they got up to in their spare time. On day one, they would know some of the people around them. We continued that in subsequent years. We would set up the Facebook page for them and they would hopefully all join; I know 1 or 2 students never quite got on to it, and I think some students couldn't get on to it, but the vast majority of students would get onto it, and you'd start learning about the class before the start of term, which I thought was really great.
00:14:02:13 - 00:14:33:18
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I want to add that as alumni, there's also an alumni Facebook page that we're all on right now. And it's a great way for us to network and there have been a lot of posts on, you know, career opportunities and job posts and whatnot. And I have had new and prospective students reach out to me and ask me about the program. The possibilities are endless, and the fact that you're able to take in student feedback and think, okay, well, this student wants to galvanize everyone and take them out to the party or to socialize.
00:14:33:18 - 00:14:50:12
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
That's wonderful. So, it's great that they have that level of comfort to actually be able to reach out and do that, because really, I mean, when you move to Glasgow and the initial period you have no one that's just you and, I want to go back to Betty's and Linda's office and Betty, and Linda they're both retired now.
00:14:50:12 - 00:15:14:03
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
But I just want to give them a shout out because I really miss both of them. But this was really the place for you to go and vent or cry or feel back at home. There was an endless supply of candies and sweeties and things, and it was just, you know, you go in, and you have all the worries on your shoulders, and you get a hug and candy, and you talk it out, and then you leave feeling wonderful.
00:15:14:03 - 00:15:32:02
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, and I'm sure even though Betty and Linda have retired now, I was going to say graduated, retired now. There are 'Betty” and “Linda” equivalents in the program that are equally loving and wonderful. Just to really emphasize the fact that you are taken care of as a human being, as a person too not just as a student.
00:15:32:08 - 00:15:41:05
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
That's something you know, I'm eternally grateful for. It was, it makes some Glasgow just all the more, you know, I have a lot of warm and fuzzy memories of Glasgow because of that.
00:15:41:07 - 00:16:07:16
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And something that we took to doing again - fairly recently was having individual meetings with students to kind of find out not only how they're doing in the program, how do they feel they're getting on. But to find out, where do you want to be? Why are you doing this? What are your career plans? And to maybe help them, develop strategies for getting where they want to be.
00:16:07:20 - 00:16:40:01
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, I think we call them personal development planning or something; have those meetings maybe once or twice while they're a student, just to kind of keep tabs on what they're doing and what they want to do and try and give them some ideas. And sometimes it's like who they might contact. And often we would reach out to alumni who were in whatever position that student wanted to be in, and maybe see if they could have a chat to the current students to help them on their way.
00:16:40:03 - 00:17:11:19
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yeah, these personal development planning meetings, they’ve a bit sort of amalgamated with a mentoring meeting now. So, it's combined now with not just looking at academic standing at the moment in the program or thinking about career plans and ideas, but also, it's certainly in the first weeks in the initial meetings, it's also about trying to find out in what kind of personal circumstances are these students at the moment.
00:17:11:19 - 00:17:38:24
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Do they live alone? Do they live with friends? Do they live in a student accommodation? Do they have support? If the student doesn't turn up, do I have to worry because they're all on their own? Or are they going to be okay because they are living with five others and something like this. So, especially now with the far more international groupings, it is, it's quite important to try and have an idea of where, that these students are actually safe.
00:17:39:01 - 00:17:57:06
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Yeah. I mean, case in point there, you summed it up perfectly, and I think Maria made an excellent point and a great segue to our next topic that we wanted to cover today is, what do students embark on afterwards? Where the students go after the Medical Genetics and Genomics program?
00:17:57:08 - 00:18:32:05
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Well, many of them go into PhDs, particularly, the UK students often want to get into the clinical laboratory diagnostics. They want to be clinical scientists. So many of them have successfully achieved that goal and in fact, many of the NHS clinical laboratory lecturers who lecture to the current class are alumni of the MSc program. So that's always good to see them come back
00:18:32:07 - 00:19:03:09
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Some students go into other science jobs. So, I know we had one student who went to work for Illumina, working in next generation sequencing. I think there's actually a whole range of jobs that people are doing, and some of them are not actually related to genetics at all. So, people use the skills they've learned and apply those skills in all sorts of different careers.
00:19:03:14 - 00:19:06:16
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Tian and I are great examples of that.
00:19:06:18 - 00:19:31:09
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, you think about the skills you've learned in team working and in leading discussions and being critical about a particular problem and thinking of ways to solve that problem. All those we call them transferable skills. They can be applied in any particular job or situation that you find yourself in. It's the same skills that are being used.
00:19:31:11 - 00:20:15:11
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Well, there's certainly always some who go on to technical posts in research environments that could be in an in an academic environment or in an industrial environment. There are people who go on to be data analysts with the tasks of interpreting specific results, sometimes not even related to genetics experiments. Some students come to Glasgow from an already established career, often sort of a medical career with the express plan to go back to their home country and bring their new skills to their home country, where the genetics diagnostics might not have been evolved as much as in the UK.
00:20:15:17 - 00:20:53:03
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
So with the aim of bringing their new skills and new experiences back, and developing a new side to the local health providing systems, loads of different aspects, I think that people go into in their careers, and I think that there's always a good number of students who come to Glasgow, to our master's with a particular career in their mind, but then after a couple of months with us, they realize that there are other things out there. And not surprisingly, nobody can always know all the possible career options that are open to them
00:20:53:03 - 00:21:16:09
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And there's always some who think, oh, I've wanted to do a PhD, but now I actually want to go into counselling and so there are changes in direction. I think counselling is actually not an insignificant proportion of students who want to go into a counselling direction, probably not even knowing that kind of field existed before coming, and then realizing that this is something that would really interest them.
00:21:16:09 - 00:21:34:12
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And of course, there's the medically qualified ones who then go on to use medical genetics more in their job. If they're paediatricians, then obviously it helps to have that medical genetics background and a few go into medical genetics as clinicians.
00:21:34:14 - 00:22:01:20
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Well, Maria was already alluding to the clinical scientist programs. This is what the NHS in the UK calls the Scientist Training Programs - STPs. I think the majority of our students, when they if they want to do that, then they are thinking about jobs in diagnostics, who are then interpreting genetic tests on patient samples. The NHS also offers programs - training programs on the management track.
00:22:01:20 - 00:22:11:14
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I didn't even know that until one of our students moved to one of these STP programs in management. That is also something that's open to our graduates.
00:22:11:19 - 00:22:41:10
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And I'll say that a lot of our alumni are actually in the program. So that said, we have a great networking opportunity there that if people are interested, you know, prospective and current students, they can always reach out. Alrighty. So, keeping in with the theme of inclusivity and diversity in the program, through many of the stories that we used to love hearing, we also learned that several individuals who have genetic conditions have completed the master's program in Medical Genetics and Genomics.
00:22:41:15 - 00:23:03:18
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I think there was an example of a cystic fibrosis patient, someone with a chromosome 15 deletion and someone who had, Turner syndrome. And they all obviously embarked on the successful careers. One of them, I believe, is a clinical scientist working with NHS and diagnostic laboratories right now. So, I was wondering, what's your experience, teaching these students and how did the program empower them?
00:23:03:23 - 00:23:30:21
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
I don't think the program actually empowered them. I think they empowered themselves. You know, they had these genetic conditions, but they weren't being limited by them. I remember the girl with Turner syndrome, we actually invited her to do part of the presentation in the aneuploidy lecture because we felt, well, we can't stand there and lecture about Turner syndrome when we have an expert. So, we'll get the expert to do that bit of the lecture, and it was great
00:23:30:21 - 00:23:57:05
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, she was able to tell the class a lot more, about day-to-day experience of having Turner syndrome, what it meant to her. And I think for the other students, it's often very easy to objectify, like patients with genetic disease and not see them as real people. And having someone with a particular genetic condition in the class is actually quite powerful with learning about genetic conditions.
00:23:57:05 - 00:24:36:07
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
The girl you mentioned with cystic fibrosis went on to work in the NHS clinical diagnostics laboratory, helping families like her own family, I guess. And likewise, the girl with the chromosome 15 deletion. She had more of an obvious disability than the other students, but nevertheless she just got on with it. And I think the other students in those classes, they were very supportive of the students and helping. For example, the girl with the 15 deletion, she had some mobility problems, but the other students would sort of get together and help out if required.
00:24:36:07 - 00:24:52:17
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
I think it was a great experience, and in fact, we did build on that. I guess it started - we had one of the lecturers on the course who was giving a lecture on gene therapy, said, “Oh, by the way, do you know, I have a child with a genetic condition.” and she was going to share her experience within her lecture.
00:24:52:17 - 00:25:10:06
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And I said, well, why don't you actually come and talk to the class about your experience of the genetic services as a patient, as someone who's experienced this. And it's turned out there were actually other staff members in the university who had children affected by genetic conditions and they would come and talk to the students.
00:25:10:06 - 00:25:30:03
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And there were quite interesting stories because you'd learn from these people. So, one was a doctor, and she explained to the class that, her son, when he was born, everything was fine. And as he developed, though, she started to get really worried about his development and she would keep going to her GP. And the GP was “Oh there’s nothing wrong. Nothing wrong.”
00:25:30:03 - 00:25:57:22
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
“It will be fine. It'll be fine.” “Don't worry” and obviously she was being dismissed as an over, a parent that's just extra worried and you know nothing wrong. And it turned out this boy had Duchenne muscular dystrophy. But she had to really push, and push, and push to get the right tests done and I think that kind of experience brings home to the class that things are not as easy maybe as they think.
00:25:57:24 - 00:26:24:15
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And this was someone who was a qualified doctor who had these problems with getting a diagnosis. And it just shows that, you know, it, it must be even tougher for people who don't have genetic backgrounds to sometimes get the diagnoses that they need. So, I think that kind of experience with people who have themselves experienced genetic services, from whatever perspective, is quite illuminating for the rest of the students.
00:26:24:21 - 00:26:44:15
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Yeah, for sure. It's - they advocate for the conditions, but they also, I guess the question should have been reframed. “How did they empower the program?” Because it's really their experiences that that really bring so much depth and richness to the, to the learning experience. But for us as students too that, these are not cases that we study about. These are real people.
00:26:44:15 - 00:26:44:22
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Right? So, it's yeah.
00:26:44:22 - 00:27:12:03
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Absolutely. On that note, I want to share in my year, we had a mother that had children with fragile X syndrome. And I think that lecture left me with a huge impact because first of all, just what's going through your mind when you're like, undergoing this diagnostic odyssey? That was a really stressful experience for her because she mentioned, very clearly, she blames herself for it because it's inherited from the X chromosome.
00:27:12:03 - 00:27:28:15
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
So, she feels like she is responsible for giving her children this disease, so has to make peace with that and eventually realize it's not her fault. I thought that left a really powerful impact on me, and I still remember that story really vividly. Gerhard, do you have anything to add to this?
00:27:28:17 - 00:28:01:12
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Well, actually, in the years since I've been in that team, I only am aware of one student who had a genetic condition and that was also a female with Turner syndrome. However, that was in the height of the Covid years. So, I personally did not actually know that she had Turner syndrome until virtually the last day of the year when she announced it to everyone, more or less, I didn't know.
00:28:01:14 - 00:28:26:01
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
What I just wondered about, listening to your conversation is how much did the rest of the class know? Because of course, students interact with each other in a completely different way and much more informally than they interact with us, and I know that I know not half of what students are up to, so I would not be surprised if within the class there was a shared knowledge.
00:28:26:01 - 00:28:41:14
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
But I can only speculate. I think what you're saying that certainly sounds really interesting for students to be challenged with this, with the fact that these are real people, this is not just a PBL scenario.
00:28:41:16 - 00:28:59:07
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
In our year we had a guest lecture from, a family and a patient and they kind of talked to us about, you know, how the disease presents for them and how it's managed and how challenging it is. So, it brings you back to the real life that, hey, like, it's not just, words on a paper.
00:28:59:11 - 00:29:17:22
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
This is actually people's lives, and we mentioned earlier, we kind of touched upon this topic a lot earlier that the testing technologies that are available are very advanced and our interpretation and understanding is getting better. But there's also a lot of work that needs to be done. There's so much that we don't know.
00:29:18:01 - 00:29:33:24
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And there are a lot of diseases that are not diagnosed that you know, we don't know what the genetic cause and even though we may do the next generation sequencing and identify every single SNP in their genome, we still don't know what the interpretation of that is and is it actually linked to the disease.
00:29:34:03 - 00:29:54:09
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
This is a challenge that we had during our PhD’s both Tian and I, right? So, I mean, the main point that I am trying to make here is that there's still a lot of work to be done and we're not even close to solving anything. And, you know, this, this problem can be very multifaceted into, going into what's, what's important.
00:29:54:09 - 00:30:08:23
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, when we talk about rare genetic diseases, for example, those tend not to take the front lines of, discussion because they're very rare. So, people tend to focus on things that are more common. So, there is a lot of work and a lot of interesting problems for us to solve.
00:30:09:00 - 00:30:16:18
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
That's why we're training up all these new people in medical genetics, so that they will find the answers to all these problems.
00:30:16:19 - 00:30:18:19
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Yeah, one problem at a time.
00:30:18:21 - 00:30:42:00
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
I guess for me, I got really into rare disease right after and hence that's why I picked my PhD. I probably can speak for you on this, Rasha, because you probably followed the same path or just because from the personal interest and that sort of leads you to, to where you are. I still look back at my experience of MSc, thinking like that was one of my fondest memories because, yeah, it - it was great.
00:30:42:06 - 00:30:52:15
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
So finally, we would like to end today's chat with some rapid-fire questions. You can answer them as brief as you can, or with as many details as you like.
00:30:52:17 - 00:31:08:12
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
These are just quirky questions. Some of them are going to be really random or we just want to put you on the spot and see what you think about things. Sounds good. [Maria – Okay!] All right. So, Maria, how do you do things so quickly?
00:31:08:14 - 00:31:27:16
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Well, I think I just don't like having a load of stuff pending. So, when I've got, I can see that there's 30 reports that need marking. I just feel right I've got to get stuck in there and I just plough through. I don't know, I just like to get stuff done.
00:31:27:18 - 00:31:37:14
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah. So, Gerhard. You taught in Dundee for a bit. At the time you were also living in Glasgow and just commuting. So, what keeps bringing you back to Glasgow?
00:31:37:16 - 00:32:03:21
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Well, as I said, I came to Glasgow in 1990 on a three-year postdoc post. I then met my wife. It turned out that she started her post on the same day that I started my postdoc, and months later, we also figured out that we both actually were interviewed on the same day in the same department. Well, this shows you the difference between the UK and the German education system.
00:32:03:24 - 00:32:25:02
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
We are very close in terms of our ages, but when she started her post on the 1st of October in 1990, she started as a lecturer. She had already five years of postdoc experience in the US at that point, while I started my very first postdoc. So, from then on, it was always her who had the permanent position.
00:32:25:02 - 00:32:50:23
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And you just have to accept at some point that you can't just uproot a whole family to try and move somewhere else. If one of you has already a permanent position. I think I was lucky overall in that I have been finding posts that were interesting, I was lucky that I've been recruited to these. Dundee was good for my development as a teacher I think, but it was hard because it's a long, long commute every day.
00:32:51:00 - 00:33:05:17
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I'm glad that I'm not in Dundee anymore because I don't think that now, at my age so to speak, that I would actually cope with that kind of physical demand of that commute as well as I did ten years ago.
00:33:05:19 - 00:33:08:24
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
What did you do on your commute, did you read?
00:33:09:01 - 00:33:31:17
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I was on the train, right, I commuted by train. So, what I did a lot is marking. I think it might be frowned upon now to take scripts out of the university, or so. It was certainly always an hour and twenty minutes on the train where I could just put headphones in and work through stuff that I would have had to make time for in my working day, otherwise.
00:33:31:17 - 00:33:54:02
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
The other thing that was actually not bad about the commute certainly the morning that was always an hour and 20 minutes that allowed me to work through the kind of teaching sessions that I had. So, I always had made that time to remind myself, “What am I actually going to tell this class now?” It was not all just reading and doing sudoku.
00:33:54:04 - 00:34:02:18
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
That's awesome. Okay, next question is for Maria. How has retirement been? Is it making you take things slower?
00:34:02:20 - 00:34:37:13
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Definitely slower, but I've taken up Pilates, so I do five Pilates sessions a week. None this morning. I play a bit more bridge. I'm also keeping my hand in with the genetics. One of the things I'm doing is with a charity called UNIQUE who provides support for families who have genetic conditions. And part of that is providing leaflets which are written in a way that people who don't have any genetics background can understand.
00:34:37:13 - 00:34:59:02
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, I'm helping them update some of their leaflets. So that's one of the things I've been doing. And also doing a bit of scientific writing - recently written with Daniel Stobo, who's one of our graduates, now clinical scientist. We wrote an article on interpretation of variants, and I've just updated an article that Leah and I generated on the genetic basis of disease. So, that new version should be coming out in 2024 at some point.
00:34:59:02 - 00:35:17:14
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Yeah, I'm doing lots of things. It's great not to have the stress. I do a tiny bit of teaching still for the MRC psych. I give them a lecture on genetics of mental illness once a year. [Rasha - Nice.]
00:35:17:16 - 00:35:28:08
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
This next question is for both of you. So, could you recount a particularly inspiring or memorable teaching moment throughout your career?
00:35:28:08 - 00:35:30:04
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Meeting us, I think?
00:35:30:05 - 00:35:31:10
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
That the answer.
00:35:31:12 - 00:35:32:15
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Good question Tian.
00:35:32:17 - 00:35:58:20
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I can think of one thing that actually was a bit of a ‘Eureka’ moment for me, and I used what I've learned at that point for a few years. I tended to go and listen to any educational presentation that I had the time for, and there was one presentation by someone whose name I've long forgotten. He was at the University of Edinburgh at the time. And he was describing something, a tool that he was using in his lectures, and that was, what's called a text wall.
00:35:58:20 - 00:36:21:09
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
So, this was a website where one could send a text message from a mobile phone to that website, and that would just list any message that comes in. And at that time, I was in Dundee, and I then used that quite a lot in my undergraduate teaching, because I tended to teach in big rooms with dual projections.
00:36:21:09 - 00:36:45:08
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
So, what I could do is have one projector, one screen that showed my lecture and the other screen showed the text wall. And I gave the students at the beginning of the series of lectures, the phone number that they could use to text to that text wall. And the first 20 minutes you'd have to then write off, because that's when they all spend time sending silly messages to each other via the text wall.
00:36:45:08 - 00:37:06:03
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
But then it settles down and what happened was that students would ask a question on the text wall, but then also others in the class would start answering that. And it was sometimes I didn't even notice what was going on behind me. When I then did look, often the questions were already answered. Everything was fine. I really liked it!
00:37:06:03 - 00:37:14:12
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And I know that students liked that way of being able to interact directly with what's going on in a lecture. I like that!
00:37:14:14 - 00:37:16:20
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
I think that was also ahead of the time.
00:37:16:22 - 00:37:26:20
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Well, no, I think it was, it was a bit of the time, because sending SMS text messages is not quite so the thing anymore. Is it?
00:37:26:22 - 00:37:29:01
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
It just now it can be done much easier.
00:37:29:04 - 00:37:41:00
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Well, yes, I've actually not thought about it for a long time. It makes a big difference if you have the dual projection, right? If you have only one projector, I don't think that's going to be particularly helpful. [Rasha -That's cool.]
00:37:41:02 - 00:37:42:16
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Maria?
00:37:42:18 - 00:38:06:08
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
The only thing that springs to mind is I actually undertook SHOOC, which is kind of like a MOOC. I can't remember what SHOOC stands for, but it's kind of like a massively open online course. But it's a private one. And it was on mentoring and because the lectures were during the working day, I was doing this via listening to the lecture recordings in the evenings.
00:38:06:10 - 00:38:26:14
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And I just remember how terribly boring it was listening to lecture recordings. So, it gave me insight into what it's like as a student to be just doing a course through lecture recordings, which I thought was a terribly bad idea because it was so boring, I ended up walking around the room and doing other things while I had this recording playing.
00:38:26:14 - 00:38:53:12
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
It showed me the difference between the kind of lecturing style that I hope I'm achieving, where I'm engaging the audience and getting the audience to talk back to me and answer questions and interact to a style of just listening. During the pandemic, when we were delivering lectures by Zoom, we insisted that students be present for the Zoom lecture, and some of them would say, “well, I just want to listen to the recording.”
00:38:53:15 - 00:39:06:08
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And we were trying to say, no, listening to the recording is not as good as being at the lecture. So yeah, that's the only thing I can really remember as a kind of ‘Eureka’ moment.
00:39:06:10 - 00:39:09:15
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Okay. Next question. Vegetarian or real haggis?
00:39:09:17 - 00:39:11:02
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
00:39:11:04 - 00:39:19:14
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Real. The party that I told you about earlier was a Burn supper. Our hosts had a particularly nice real haggis.
00:39:19:17 - 00:39:28:10
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Now, actually, I want to go. I've seen it advertised on television. There is a chocolate haggis. Now, I would go for the chocolate haggis every time.
00:39:28:15 - 00:39:30:08
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Wow. What's a chocolate haggis?
00:39:30:13 - 00:39:34:07
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
I don't know, but it sounds lovely. I think it's just chocolate.
00:39:34:09 - 00:39:37:07
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Chocolate covered in guts.
00:39:37:09 - 00:39:48:12
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I want to say, I only had vegetarian haggis. I've never tried the real deal. And the vegetarian haggis that I had was at the international lunch at the MSc program. But the chocolate one sounds much nicer, I agree.
00:39:48:14 - 00:39:51:01
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Oh, absolutely. Definitely.
00:39:51:03 - 00:39:52:10
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Next question, Tian you go ahead.
00:39:52:12 - 00:39:58:14
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
What scientific skill do you think would help you most if you were stranded on a deserted island?
00:39:58:18 - 00:40:04:09
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Problem solving. Using the available tools and equipment to survive.
00:40:04:11 - 00:40:05:12
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah, I completely agree.
00:40:05:12 - 00:40:10:15
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yes, communication skills.
00:40:10:17 - 00:40:16:06
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Okay. yeah. especially the non-verbal ones like message in the bottle type.
00:40:16:08 - 00:40:19:21
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Might take too long.
00:40:19:23 - 00:40:29:19
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
See! Already critically thinking with a problem. So, what is an item that you guys keep on your desk at all times?
00:40:29:21 - 00:40:38:06
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
My computer. I have a cat shaming calendar that somebody gave me. I don't have a cat, Gerhard does.
00:40:38:08 - 00:40:41:14
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yes, we're lucky he's not here.
00:40:41:16 - 00:40:44:07
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
I have some daffodils.
00:40:44:09 - 00:41:02:02
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I've got a little zebra that has been with me for a very long time and that is because I used to be a member of a cinema as an undergrad. And that cinema was called Zebra cinema. So that has meaning to me.
00:41:02:04 - 00:41:07:15
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Yeah. An alternate career for you, Gerhard? Sounds like the performer. A musician then?
00:41:07:23 - 00:41:26:16
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yes. Yeah. I think as a teacher, you have to let out the inner rock star. You just have to lose your inhibitions, and it is a performance. I mean, I said it early on. All singing, all dancing. It's I wasn't joking. It is really a performance. You have to engage your audience.
00:41:26:18 - 00:41:33:02
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Yeah, I'm very aware of that when any time I'm giving a lecture, well it is, you are performing. Yes. Yeah.
00:41:33:04 - 00:41:34:18
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Do you have a favourite gene?
00:41:34:23 - 00:41:59:23
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Oh, gosh, I'd have to say no. Not really. Whatever, Whichever gene I'm currently looking at is my favourite gene. I mean, the most interesting thing recently was the 22q11 deletions, which I was doing for the UNIQUE group. Everything about that, that was what I was really interested in at the time. But the next, the next thing, I will get really interested in the next thing.
00:41:59:23 - 00:42:01:17
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, not one favourite gene.
00:42:01:23 - 00:42:19:12
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Me neither. As a diploma and PhD student, I had a favourite gene, the one that I was working on. As a postdoc then I had a favourite gene, the one I was working on. Ever since I stopped being research active, I think I spread my affection much more widely.
00:42:19:14 - 00:42:24:00
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Okay. Do the new Gen Z students make you feel old?
00:42:24:02 - 00:42:56:11
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yes! They definitely do! Because the current students, they are now quite a bit younger than my sons, so it starts being very noticeable. Also, I think the outlook on life of young people, is just different compared to how I grew up. The “digital natives”, that's the phrase, isn't it? I tell myself that I'm not bad with digital technology, but I'm not embedded in whatever is happening at the moment.
00:42:56:13 - 00:42:57:22
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
So yes. Old!
00:42:57:24 - 00:43:11:06
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
I have a technophobia. So, any new teaching technology, I always think, oh God, you know Zoom I oh God. But then when, when you get into it, it's great. But yes.
00:43:11:08 - 00:43:27:22
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah. I guess that concludes our questions. So, thanks both of you for coming. I want to give a special thanks to Dr Saeeda Bhatti for organizing this whole thing and making it happen. She was responsible for all the podcasts you hear coming from the department. So, I give her a special thanks.
00:43:27:24 - 00:43:41:07
Speaker 2 - Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Thank you, Saeeda, for including us and thank you, Gerhard and Maria, for, taking out time out of your very busy schedules to chat with us today. It was great talking to you and learning more about you and, yeah, it was a pleasure. I'm very happy.
00:43:41:12 - 00:43:46:14
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Nice talking to you. And thanks for all the challenging questions.
00:43:46:16 - 00:43:49:12
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Bye, lovely to see you guys. Bye.
00:43:49:14 - 00:44:08:10
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
And that concludes our two-part series on the University of Glasgow's Medical Genetics and Genomics program. We hope you enjoyed our discussion on what it's like to be a student in this program. If you missed part one, be sure to go back and listen to learn more about Maria and Gerhard and about the program itself.
00:44:08:10 - 00:44:37:04
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Stay tuned for the next podcast in the series, where Courtney Elliott discusses the Genetic Counselling program with Dr Leah Marks and David Walker. Thank you for listening to Medical Genetics and Genomics podcast from the University of Glasgow. Hope you enjoyed it!