Transcript: Episode Four - A Medical Genetics and Genomics Kind of Bonding (Part One)
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:17
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Hello and welcome to the Medical Genetics and Genomics podcast from the University of Glasgow.
00:00:14:19 - 00:00:37:23
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
This is the first podcast in the education series. Previously we heard from Dr. Gary Kerr and Dr. Douglas Wilcox the first MSc program director. Today we'll be sharing our experience of our time on the MSc program and chatting with the previous and current program directors about how they're creating such a memorable experience for students. I'm your host, Dr. Tian Zhao.
00:00:38:04 - 00:00:46:03
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
I graduated from Medical Genetics and Genomics MSc program in 2016. With me is my co-host, Dr. Rasha Sabouny.
00:00:46:05 - 00:00:55:08
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Good morning, from where I am in Toronto, I'm Dr. Rasha Sabouny. I'm an alumna of the MSc Medical Genetics program and I graduated back in 2013.
00:00:55:10 - 00:01:18:10
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
As I told you, I graduated 2016 and after my MSc, I went back to Canada and did a PhD on mitochondrial disease and that's where I met. Rasha. Upon a learning Rasha was also from the same program gave me the assurance this PhD is the place I should be. And as a fresh PhD student where you're still trying to figure out where you are and whether this program is for you, it's invaluable.
00:01:18:12 - 00:01:36:12
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Yeah. So, I took a similar route to Tian, and after completing my master's in Medical Genetics, I was so curious about genetic diseases and the role of genetic diseases that I decided to go down the PhD route. So, I also moved to Calgary, so, I came back to Canada, moved to Calgary, Alberta. And I did my PhD on mitochondrial biology.
00:01:36:18 - 00:01:57:04
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I was really interested in how mitochondria change their shape, how they fuse, and they divide and how they regulate mitochondrial DNA, those processes. And in the process, I also looked at a lot of rare genetic diseases that affect the mitochondria. I think towards the third year of my PhD, I learned that there was a student, mysterious student coming from Glasgow who also did his MSc in Medical
00:01:57:06 - 00:02:15:11
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, for me, I initially thought - I didn't know Tian personally, but I knew him because I knew the program, so I knew what I was expecting. I was going to get another colleague who was very warm and kind and smart. So, I was really excited, and we hit it off. I think Tian and I became friends instantly. It was awesome.
00:02:15:13 - 00:02:24:22
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And I remember we took a selfie at the time, and we wanted to share it with the program, just to show them that - we're two siblings from the MSc Medical Genetics program.
00:02:24:24 - 00:02:49:23
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah. I think you described exactly how I felt when I first learned there's another person from the MSc program. It's basically like a siblingship. I think there's just this connection because we both experienced this wonderful, we both had this wonderful experience that made us connect much quicker. I'm currently working as a program officer for Genome Alberta, which is a nonprofit organization that funds genomic research.
00:02:49:24 - 00:02:58:06
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
I guess I'm still in the genomic realm, but I'm working more towards the funding side of things. I guess quite different from like what I did before.
00:02:58:08 - 00:03:21:12
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Currently, I have transitioned from, Medical Genetics and from my work and my PhD to working with the federal government in Canada; and I work as a scientific evaluator. So, this is just to give you a little bit of a flavour to how broad and wide your career will transition after you come to your Medical Genetics program in Glasgow.
00:03:21:17 - 00:03:23:15
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Honestly, the possibilities are endless.
00:03:23:15 - 00:03:26:12
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
So, let's, introduce today's speakers.
00:03:26:14 - 00:03:50:07
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, today we have the absolute pleasure of hosting Dr. Maria Jackson, who was the previous MSc Medical Genetics and Genomics program director. Maria was a director when I was, in the program. So, she completed her undergraduate studies at the University of Leicester, in 1980, followed by a PhD, also at Leicester, which she completed in 1984.
00:03:50:08 - 00:04:16:07
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Maria joined the MSc program as an instructor in 2005 and directed the program when I started - I was very lucky to have her from 2012 to 2021. Maria is fondly remembered for her passion as an instructor, her contagious enthusiasm for thinking critically about genetic problem sets, and her seemingly effortless ability to arrive at sound conclusions. I always, always, always still look up to Maria, and I think I secretly want to be Maria when I grew up.
00:04:16:07 - 00:04:27:10
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Also, her ability to mark exams and assignments at, at or close to the speed of light. She was phenomenal. Hi Maria, very lovely to have you here.
00:04:27:12 - 00:04:37:02
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Thank you Rasha, what a lovely introduction. And I think you've at least equalled me, if not exceeded what I've done. Yes. It's lovely to be here.
00:04:37:04 - 00:05:03:03
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah. So, our second guest today is Dr. Gerhard May. Gerhard is the current program director of the MSc Medical Genetics and Genomics program. Gerhard has an undergraduate degree in biology from University of Konstanz in the Southwest of Germany. He also completed his PhD in Microbial Genetics at the same university. He moved to Scotland in 1990, and after a number of different posts, he joined the Medical Genetics team in March 2016.
00:05:03:03 - 00:05:26:02
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Gerhard is humorous, charming and multifaceted. His serious mannerism just makes his jokes hit that much harder. Fun fact about Gerhard he also has an MSc in IT, is part of a band and has chickens as pets, which makes him really good at “Two Truths and a Lie”. [Gerhard: Hello everyone! Thanks for having me].
00:05:26:04 - 00:05:51:12
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Thank you, both of you, for joining us today. So, Tian and I, like you mentioned when we were together in Calgary, we often reminisce about our times in the Medical Genetics program and what we did in Glasgow. And whether we have shared experiences or whether we've gone to the same places or not. So, looking back for us, it was very clear that the Medical Genetics and Genomics program in Glasgow was fun, it was inclusive, and it really prepared us well for our future endeavours.
00:05:51:12 - 00:06:04:20
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And as you can tell, you know, we've gone on to do very different things from where we started. And I, for one, did not even think that I would end up doing what I'm doing today - there you have it. So, let's start with how were you both doing today?
00:06:04:22 - 00:06:29:11
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Great. Looking forward to talking to you all. Something that struck me while Tian was introducing Gerhard was that Gerhard also started out with microbial genetics, as I did, which there was a lot of people working on microbial models way back then. We moved across fields and that's something that people can do. And I see that with you guys, Rasha and Tian as well.
00:06:29:12 - 00:06:55:12
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
This kind of underlines one key aspect of all this education and doing PhD’s and things, is that it's not about the body of knowledge that you get during your MSc or your PhD it's about the skills that you're learning, which you can then bring into a totally different field. And hopefully that will come out again as we’re speaking.
00:06:55:12 - 00:06:58:02
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
But sorry, it just struck me.
00:06:58:04 - 00:07:09:22
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
No for sure. And we were just joking that we're both in an agricultural field and we never looked at the genetics of a potato or anything really. But I mean, we have the skillset to figure everything out.
00:07:09:24 - 00:07:13:17
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
To be fair, they do have mitochondria, so we're still in the relevant field.
00:07:13:17 - 00:07:18:07
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I think so. Yeah. Gerhard, how are you today? How's your day going?
00:07:18:09 - 00:07:48:13
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I'm okay. I'm okay because you're saying I play music - my dad band - we've just had a big party last night. I didn't get to bed until half past 2. I am feeling a little bit weary at the moment, so don't expect too much sparkle right now, but I agree with what Maria said. Actually, this is quite an interesting topic because, when I started, I thought bacterial genetics and especially DNA structure was the bee's knees.
00:07:48:15 - 00:08:06:21
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And it became clear quite quickly to me certainly, when I was approaching the end of my PhD, that it's not going to work like that, that you start a PhD on some topic and for the rest of your career, you're going to work on that topic. Some, very few, people can do this but it's really not like this anymore.
00:08:07:01 - 00:08:35:10
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Like in the olden days, “a gene, a career”, that kind of stuff. So, these days you have to be flexible. I, like Maria moved from the bacteria to working on eukaryotic cells, but actually as a molecular biologist, it doesn't matter what cell type you're working with. It's more about the techniques that you know to use. And I think it's my experience as molecular biologist and then as a teacher that got me into the medical genetics.
00:08:35:10 - 00:08:41:20
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
That was a steep learning curve at first to me. But you have to be willing to adapt.
00:08:41:22 - 00:08:58:18
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
For sure. I think that's the very good piece of advice that you give, because, you know, as you graduate from the Medical Genetics - the master's program or if you've gone on to do a PhD, when you start actually looking for jobs, you need to take a very big step back and think very broad terms, not in the subject matter of expertise that you're in.
00:08:58:20 - 00:09:15:21
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
But, you know, what are the tools and what are the skills that I've learned that I can offer to the world. So, you have project management skills. You have the ability to present. You have the ability to perform very complicated techniques. So, you're absolutely right. And those are things that you can, you know, they can take you very far.
00:09:15:22 - 00:09:31:11
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
This is a perfect segue to our next section. So, you said you started off in microbial genetics and you've gone on probably to do other things. So, we wanted to - we were curious about how each of you developed as instructors, if you can, you know, tell us your story. How did your scientific journey begin?
00:09:31:13 - 00:09:35:13
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
and how did you eventually arrive at the Medical Genetics program?
00:09:35:15 - 00:10:05:23
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Okay. Will, I start? I did my, my PhD, and my first research post were at Leicester University a long time ago. And I was working on, protein transport within bacteria. And I then moved on to Liverpool, where I did another two years on the same kind of research. Then I moved to Glasgow to work in a group that were investigating how papillomaviruses caused cancer in humans.
00:10:05:23 - 00:10:29:17
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And again, this was a quite a big change from previous, but it was using the same molecular genetic techniques, just applying those techniques to a different problem. And we were doing culture of animal cells and human cells where before I'd been culturing bacteria, but everything else was - it's the same technique. So, you're applying what you know to a new problem.
00:10:29:19 - 00:10:57:06
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So having done that for a few years, I then moved to a teaching post within the University of Glasgow. As part of that move, I actually undertook a postgraduate Certificate in Teaching and Learning in Higher Education, which is quite a mouthful. And doing that, I actually learned a lot about how students learn, what kinds of approaches work best, how to lecture effectively.
00:10:57:06 - 00:11:21:03
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So that was very useful to do that actual qualification. I was just teaching in some genetics and molecular biology - course, organization and teaching. As part of this, I met Dr. Douglas Wilcox from medical genetics because he was one of the guest lecturers on a genetics course. I was organizing his guest lecture every year, and so we'd get chatting.
00:11:21:03 - 00:11:45:04
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
One year, around about 2004 I think, he phoned me and said, “Would you like a job with me, with my department?”. And I jumped at the chance. Any time I'd seen Douglas teaching in his guest lecture, he'd always had the ability to really inspire the students and catch their interest. He made medical genetics sound really, really interesting and exciting, which I found it was when I got there.
00:11:45:06 - 00:12:17:14
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Definitely. I want to say your enthusiasm for medical genetics definitely showed, at least from my experience, I can really feel it throughout the program. Yeah! So Gehard, how about you?
00:12:17:16 - 00:12:47:16
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Well, I did my undergrad degree and my PhD in the University of Konstanz in the South of Germany. And my PhD simply continued a project that I did as my diploma project - my undergrad is actually called a diploma, which is probably more comparable to a master's degree than a UK undergraduate BSc. After my PhD, I decided to go abroad for a few years. I was offered a post at the University of Glasgow in the then Department of Genetics, working on, site specific recombination bacteria. So, I got to that because I was interested in DNA structures and topology. At that point then I was married and had a little child, and suddenly the opportunities to just move somewhere else in the world were a lot more difficult.
00:12:47:22 - 00:13:10:08
Speaker 1 - Dr. Gerhard May
That was, I think, for me, the first time when I had to look at what can I actually do? What have I learned to do? And that's when I moved to a different, postdoc in eukaryotic transcription. I was then offered a while later- late 90s - I was offered a lectureship at the University of Glasgow in the Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology.
00:13:10:14 - 00:13:34:24
Speaker 4- Dr. Gerhard May
And you were asking about being an educator. During my whole time as a postdoc, there was never any requirement to do any teaching, in the 90s. When I was offered that post, even before I started up that post, I was informed what lectures I was going to teach in my first semester. So that was really the deep end, because I had no idea how to lecture.
00:13:35:01 - 00:14:09:20
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And unlike Maria, I was also not asked to do a postgraduate certificate. It was all basically self-taught. I did make an effort to observe other lecturers and try and learn from other people, but there was no formal training or anything. After this lectureship, that post hadn't been extended then - I managed to get offered a post at the University of Dundee, that was then a teaching and scholarship post, so that that was my step away from research.
00:14:10:00 - 00:14:36:03
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Clearly at the University of Dundee, they thought that my experience teaching in Glasgow was good enough, that they also didn't put me on to their new lecturer program - so again, no formal training. And I was teaching undergraduates in life sciences and in medicine actually - biochemistry to medics - for many years before I then moved back to Glasgow to Medical Genetics.
00:14:36:07 - 00:14:59:12
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
And that was again a big change. Every single change from one post to the next one, meant actually that I had to learn new things, new tricks. Up until moving to Medical Genetics, I had not really thought very hard about human genetics and how humans inherit from their parents. Everything's new all the time.
00:14:59:14 - 00:15:20:00
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So fun fact I want to throw in there is that Gerhard and I crossed paths. I don't know if you - he probably doesn't remember, but I remember you very fondly. I did a year exchange when I was in my undergrad studies in Canada. I went to Dundee, and he was my instructor for two courses. I was very happy when I learned that you joined the MSc program and like, oh, that's another name I know, that's wonderful.
00:15:20:00 - 00:15:37:17
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, a lot of very interesting points you both raise here. And one thing I wanted to mention, so it sounds like from both your stories, you both started off in research and you were sort of very heavily involved in research, and you were transitioned into almost exclusively teaching post. Was that challenging for you?
00:15:37:21 - 00:15:39:01
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
How did you cope?
00:15:39:03 - 00:16:10:16
Speaker 4- Dr. Gerhard May
It was challenging, for my ego. I think as a PhD student, I was under the impression that there would be a clear path in research for me in academia. I found it difficult to accept that I am actually not cut out to be an academic group leader and researcher. I know that I was a good researcher, but I was not the one who came up with the ideas and the one who got money from outside sources.
00:16:10:16 - 00:16:34:20
Speaker 4- Dr. Gerhard May
I had to accept that being the permanent postdoc working on projects that other people dreamt up wasn't a viable long-term strategy. So, for me, that switch to a teaching post was not an easy one. I mean, I knew that after five years at Glasgow University, I knew that I was a good lecturer.
00:16:34:23 - 00:17:00:21
Speaker 4- Dr. Gerhard May
But the accepting that research wasn’t for me wasn't easy partially also because of that whole culture that I grew up in that if you can't do, then you teach, which I'm hoping is slowly dying out. Certainly, it had a bit of an effect on my sense of self-worth. But, in Dundee, the whole teaching ethos and in the life-sciences teaching and learning unit that I was actually was very good at stimulating my sense of self-worth again.
00:17:00:21 - 00:17:27:19
Speaker 4- Dr. Gerhard May
And after I've been nominated for some award by students, that made me think, okay, what I'm doing is probably not that wrong. So, I'm quite happy and settled in my role as a teacher now. But it's not obvious for everyone that this is something that one might have to consider because - I think as a PhD student, even now, you're not trained to consider that you might want to become a teacher.
00:17:27:21 - 00:17:45:24
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
It's true. I want to say that everything you said echoed so much with me, because I really, I still struggle - the fact that I left research completely and I'm doing something different, but I feel healed now. Honestly, like the way you spoke about it, it's, it's very heartwarming. And I want to say, you know, the comment that you said, if you can't do it, then you teach.
00:17:46:02 - 00:18:04:18
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
It's very ironic because for us, the thing that really - like we carry with us and we remember so, so fondly about the MSc program is how you guys taught. So, for us that's the main point that shone, besides a lot of other points as well, but, I want to say, I'll add to that you're a wonderful instructor.
00:18:04:18 - 00:18:10:15
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I didn't have you for genetics, but I know you are from Dundee - my comment is valid. What about you Maria?
00:18:10:15 - 00:18:32:07
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Yeah. I mean, I agree with a lot of what Gerhard said. When I first came to teaching, it was certainly seen as not on a par with doing research. I mean, so if you were just in a teaching post that was definitely a few steps down from being in a research group or leading research.
00:18:32:09 - 00:18:52:12
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
But I think that has changed significantly, over say the past five years or so. And there are now, like, teaching scholarship tracks within the university and I guess within other universities as well, so, that has improved. Teaching is seen as something which is valuable. and it's a skill. So, I think that's nice.
00:18:52:14 - 00:19:23:05
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
That's so nice to hear because, I always have a knack for teaching. When I was TA’ing my courses during my PhD, I always try to recreate the experience of my highlight points from the MSc to the students. This is perfect for what we're going to talk about next which is just our experience at MSc. I feel like I learned a lot of stuff, both from the basic science perspective as well as from an academic skills perspective, as well as learning about the clinical practice.
00:19:23:07 - 00:19:43:21
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
It was a one-year program, right? One year MSc and it was a taught MSc. So, for whomever you say one-year MSc they’re like “Oh my gosh” they like, “Did you even learn enough” because typically master's programs are two years at least. But my goodness, the stuff you learned from September to September it is endless. And for me, I think it was the breadth of knowledge, but also the way it was introduced.
00:19:43:21 - 00:19:59:22
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, for example, we attended lectures just like any other program. So, there was the information presented to us in lectures, but then we reinforced the information in the lectures where we went to the lab and we applied whatever new technique we had been learning on, or one of the techniques, let's say. And then we had a PBL.
00:19:59:22 - 00:20:18:23
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, problem-based learning is what PBL stands for. So, this is basically a simulation of a real-life problem where we're divided into groups, and we're given to this problem. And we're told here this is the information you have, how are you going to go about solving this genetic problem? And usually, the topics would be very relevant to something that we've been covering in class.
00:20:18:23 - 00:20:36:24
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, if you missed a part of the many pieces of information that were presented to you in any part of these activities, it will be reinforced at some point. And then at some point you realize they're like, oh, there are tutorials. If you're struggling with something, here's another thing you can learn whatever you missed, whatever you don't understand.
00:20:37:01 - 00:20:53:14
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I just remember that Glasgow is genetics. So now sometimes I keep thinking that if I go back to Glasgow, is it going to feel the same? Because my life was just really structured around that. I had the ability and the opportunity to learn the basic science of things, how to write about it, how to present about it.
00:20:53:14 - 00:21:10:07
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, it was it was really awesome. And then I remember I had a lot of colleagues that did not speak English. I mean, my English is not my first language either. So, for them, whomever struggled, you know, we helped each other and there was a lot of opportunities to help them in the program. So yeah, I think for me, the most thing that I remember is that people were great.
00:21:10:07 - 00:21:30:12
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
You know, from instructors to the students to the staff to everyone in Glasgow is just awesome. There's lots and lots of opportunities to learn, and it's okay to make mistakes and someone is always there to help you. So yeah. And that's my memory of Glasgow. Another thing we were, curious about - so for me, I mean, I graduated 11 years ago this year.
00:21:30:15 - 00:21:34:24
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Can you tell us a little bit more about the program in its current format.
00:21:35:01 - 00:22:05:12
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
The program in its current format, as you said, this is a one-year taught program. In the UK, the academic year is split into three semesters. The first two semesters, that's from September to December and then from January till the end of March, they are taken up by taught courses. Most master's programs at the University of Glasgow are now structured in such a way that there are actually choices, that they are relatively short, compact courses.
00:22:05:12 - 00:22:34:14
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Students take the three short courses over a semester, and in each block, they have a few choices. Our program is different. Our first semester is one big course that occupies the whole semester. That has always been like that, as far as I certainly remember since I joined the team. I'm sure that this is a leftover from the time when the whole master's program was a standalone part object basically.
00:22:34:14 - 00:23:03:19
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
In the second semester, students take two shorter compulsory courses, but one course where they have options. There are three different courses between students can choose. I have to say, the choices are not entirely free, because two of the courses can't take on limitless numbers of students, and there are other programs for whom these other courses are more or almost compulsory.
00:23:03:19 - 00:23:29:12
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
So, these other programs get the students in first and then any leftover spaces can be taken up by students from our program. In the third semester, so that is from April, early May onwards, students will then conduct a research project. We call that a dissertation, but dissertation sounds a bit too much like it's just a written piece of reviewing existing literature.
00:23:29:14 - 00:23:56:24
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
It is a research project, where students have to work on a research question. That research question might be what we call a dry project question, where students would review literature, but always with questions that haven't been asked before in mind. There is also a large number of potential lab-based projects or other data analysis projects, bioinformatics projects.
00:23:56:24 - 00:24:20:00
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Project allocation is quite a complex process. I think our program students have probably in the range of 100 different projects that they can potentially choose from, so they can then put in their preferred topics. But there is no guarantee that every student gets one of their preferred topics. There is an element of competition there with other students.
00:24:20:00 - 00:24:45:09
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And to some extent, it is the best students who have the highest chance of getting the project of their choice. Each of these courses have their own assessments and there are certain hurdles that students have to reach. So, for example, students have to reach a certain grade point average over all their taught courses over the first two semesters to be allowed to progress to the project stage in the third semester.
00:24:45:09 - 00:25:08:04
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
If they don't jump that hurdle, then they can exit at that point with a postgraduate diploma so that the first two thirds of the year wasn't a complete waste for them.
00:25:08:04 - 00:25:27:06
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah. So, it sounds like it's still, mostly the same structure since, since I took the course, I guess. Yeah, I remember pretty fondly of the dissertation program - I think - it's also just the build-up of the taught courses, slowly, sort of makes you feel like you're ready to take on a real challenge, which is the dissertation. And I think the dissertation I did with the cell culture experience certainly would help me land my PhD position.
00:25:27:08 - 00:25:50:06
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Yeah, I would say the same. I did, I had some lab experience too, because of the dissertation program. I remember I think we did; we sequenced the gene, we're looking for SNPs and things. I didn't find anything. It wasn't groundbreaking. I did not solve the genetic problem that I was looking at. But again, you know, going back to our earlier point, the main point was to learn the technique and apply the knowledge and think about this problem critically.
00:25:50:08 - 00:26:13:18
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
But I think it's also important that in that aspect to teach you that research is not always successful. I think my project didn't end up working the way I, we, envisioned it to either that learning experience was important for my PhD because I experienced, countless sort of incidents of things that didn't work after. So, I guess it prepared me for that.
00:26:13:20 - 00:26:42:16
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, Gerhard mentioned that - that some students have all these hurdles to pass, and some of them would end up with a diploma rather than MSc. And of course, that is very, very few students. So almost all students, 99% at least of students would get the MSc. And it was only a very small number of students who, for whatever reason, they were maybe in the wrong MSc or just academically not up to completing an MSc.
00:26:42:16 - 00:26:45:11
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
But that was a very, very small number of students.
00:26:45:13 - 00:27:01:12
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I think that also speaks to the rigor and the content of the program. It's not because it's a one-year program and you kind of brush over the topics. It's actually quite in-depth and it's quite involved. So, and that's something we can both attest to, Tian and I, for sure.
00:27:01:14 - 00:27:18:20
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Obviously, you can identify students who might be struggling early on, about January, after they've been there three months. And if we suspect particular students are struggling, then we do try to give them extra support to help them get through the hurdles so they're not on their own.
00:27:18:22 - 00:27:36:18
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Yeah, I think, I don't think at any point was ever anyone on their own, and that was true for every single activity we did. Right, whether it was, before exams or, for giving presentation, we had to present certain cases. and those were very nerve wracking. My gosh, you asked a lot of questions.
00:27:36:18 - 00:27:53:14
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
It was good, good memories. But we learned so much from these. Okay, so while we're on this topic, I was curious about when you designed the program or as the program structure has sort of, slowly evolved. What was your vision or your teaching philosophy?
00:27:53:19 - 00:28:30:10
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
I think what I would say is I was continuing the vision of Dr. Douglas Wilcox in the MSc program. So, what the MSc is currently doing is his vision, not mine - so much. But what we're trying to do is to have a course which incorporated not just lectures, where students could absorb - hopefully - some information, but had active learning parts, things like problem-based learning, that you mentioned Rasha, where the students work in groups and talk to each other and discuss problems, and they'll be teaching each other about things that they knew.
00:28:30:12 - 00:29:01:21
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, I think it's been mentioned already that the PBL groups were very diverse, and you might have students from different backgrounds bringing in different knowledge so they could share it. There were also the clinical program sessions. Once a week, Dr Douglas Wilcox or Dr Ed Tobias, now Professor Ed Tobias, would bring a clinical problem to the class and maybe tell the students something about this case and say, okay, what do you think I would do as a doctor? What should I do next?
00:29:01:21 - 00:29:23:02
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And the students had to make suggestions. What tests would be done for this patient or family and where to go next with this, and what risks could be given to various people in the family. So, the students were working on real problems, both in the problem-based learning and in the clinical problem sessions.
00:29:23:04 - 00:29:56:17
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Rasha, you mentioned the labs and the labs were a big part of the original vision, but subsequently the techniques in medical genetics, as in all of molecular biology, have become increasingly sophisticated with increasing use of kits. Where all you have to do for any particular test is to get a wee eppendorf, a tiny wee tube, pipette various things into it that come out of the kit, add your patient DNA, stick it into a machine, and the machine will spit out a trace.
00:29:56:22 - 00:30:30:01
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, the actual lab work has become very boring and routine. And the more skilful bit is interpreting and evaluating what the machine spits out. So, that I introduced data analysis and the written reports that the students do during the first two semesters tended to focus on interpretation of data that they were given, and thinking about the limitations of that data and how it could be translated into information for patients.
00:30:30:03 - 00:31:14:02
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Then there's the examinations. And again, part of the vision of Dr. Douglas Wilcox, the examinations were not essay writing. Because essay writing is really often just recall of facts, recall of information and doesn't test higher level skills particularly. What Dr. Wilcox had done is set out exams which were problem solving. So, short answer papers where there would be a main case and the students would be asked questions about it, asked to interpret data, asked to interpret family histories, asked to think about what tests they might do to find out what's happening in this family, so which particular genetic testing would work best and why.
00:31:14:02 - 00:31:16:06
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So that was the exams.
00:31:16:08 - 00:31:19:18
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
We interacted with a lot with clinical staff as well. [Maria: yeah.]
00:31:19:20 - 00:31:42:21
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Yeah. So, when I first started at the MSc, there was only previously Douglas as a teacher who gave his clinical problem session once a week. And then the rest of the lectures were actually delivered by NHS clinical scientists, who were obviously really all experts in what they were doing, but they had no training at all in how to teach.
00:31:42:24 - 00:32:10:06
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And one problem identified very early on, was that the lectures were often too densely packed with information. They were delivered too fast, and quite often I don't think the majority of the class were actually benefiting from all this information. Again, this would be because these guys have been given no formal training in how to lecture, how to communicate with students in a meaningful way.
00:32:10:08 - 00:32:43:01
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
One thing that was definitely needed was some introductory lectures that the students would get from me before the NHS scientists. But also, I asked the clinical scientists to focus more on presenting cases to the students and getting the students to analyse those cases. So, the NHS scientists would also be doing problem sessions effectively with the students. And that really worked well because the students would work again in small groups and talk to each other about particular data problems.
00:32:43:01 - 00:32:53:14
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And the NHS clinical scientists could wander around the room and give help to individual groups, point them in the right direction. And so again, it was a very active learning process.
00:32:53:16 - 00:33:34:06
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And to add to this, there are plenty of programs, courses in undergraduate and postgraduate programs where individuals come in to give a short number of teaching sessions from their research experience. And people who have a huge amount of research experience don't necessarily make fabulous teachers. So, one has to simply accept that researchers, academic researchers, industrial researchers, diagnostic scientists, clinicians, their day job is not teaching, and therefore it's not always fair to accept that they are the all-dancing or all-singing performers.
00:33:34:06 - 00:33:52:24
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And that's why having a mixture of people who are trained teachers and other people who have - who come to the education side much more from providing information about their day job basically. That is a good thing, in my view, that mixture.
00:33:53:00 - 00:34:11:11
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
For sure. I remember actually very vividly once they give us a karyotype and they're like, “What's the problem there?” We were just looking chromosomes, like, we have no idea. But then, days later told us, like you said, they have, well, I if they still look at karyotypes, so they actually have programs and software to analyse the chromosomes and find aberrations.
00:34:11:11 - 00:34:26:20
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
But it was very cool at least, you know, to get a first-hand account of what the scientists are doing on the clinical side of things. And it kind of helped some people shape their career making decisions, whether this was something that was for them or not. That was cool. What about you Gerhard? Has that changed?
00:34:26:22 - 00:34:51:00
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Well, I joined the team. And I think in retrospect, there was a need to contribute to the teaching of the basic molecular biology. One of the first things that I did was set up a very short revision course, with the aim to bring all students who joined the program onto the same sort of level on basic molecular biology.
00:34:51:01 - 00:35:19:15
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I didn't join with the expectation to have a vision for how that program should work. So, it's been basically just continuing how the program was while Maria was the program director. When I took over from her, I did not feel the need to stake out my territory, so to speak, and make changes just for the changes sake. To me, the program worked well. My role as I see it, actually, is not so much to have a big vision for changes, but for helping evolve the program to keep track with the changes in the workplace.
00:35:19:16 - 00:35:44:12
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Since we're on the topic of teaching, I know the students from the MSc program actually come to a very different and very different backgrounds.
00:35:44:12 - 00:36:10:13
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
So how do you ensure that students have a solid understanding of a basic science while making sure they also introduced to the cutting-edge technologies of genetics and genomics that sort of has evolved over the past few years. Is that too much content and can that be sort of overwhelming?
00:36:10:17 - 00:36:41:15
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I think for many students, our first semester is really quite challenging and can be quite overwhelming. We, are trying to help students gain the confidence and remember the stuff that they all will have learned in their time as a school pupil or in their undergraduate degrees. As was said before, this is a diverse group of students coming from many different countries and with lots of different backgrounds. Some come directly from an undergraduate program, others come after having worked in some profession for a significant number of years. A very diverse group.
00:36:41:15 - 00:37:05:06
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
As I said before, I have developed this kind of revision course, which is very brief. And it's a course that runs on our virtual learning environment. Students who are accepted on the program are enrolled on this revision course, before the program starts. The program starts usually in the second or third week of September, something like that.
00:37:05:06 - 00:37:28:00
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And we try to enrol students onto their revision course by the end of August. They are told that they can work through this if they have time. And this is an attempt to just remind students of very basic - well to me - basic molecular biology concepts. It certainly helps students to become more confident.
00:37:28:02 - 00:37:48:06
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I want to share a personal experience about this. It's very painful to admit, but it's okay, I want to and I think I'm quite okay with that. So absolutely. I agree with everything you said. We have to humble ourselves sometimes and accept that we don't know everything. So, for me, a personal experience with RFLPs - I think there was a technique where we used restriction enzymes.
00:37:48:06 - 00:38:12:06
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, these are enzymes that cut DNA at specific sequences. And the sequences are palindromes. So, they're sequences that read the same from both sides from 5’ (prime) to 3’ (prime) and 5’ (prime) to 3’ (prime). So, for someone who knows some genetics they will understand what I'm saying. But this is the very first lab that we did. And we had to do the experiments from the whatever the assay and get our results and then submit a report.
00:38:12:06 - 00:38:30:06
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And then I got feedback, and I think I had to submit feedback about what I learned from the assignment itself. And I discovered that I did not actually understand what a palindrome was. And this was - and I was a graduate of a BSc program, right? Technically, this is a very basic concept in genetics. So, it is a very humbling experience.
00:38:30:06 - 00:38:52:17
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And I think we need to take a step back and think I don't know everything and it's okay. But it also takes that one person to make a fool of themselves and identify, and actually identify as, okay, I don't know what I'm doing. And then it kind of creates this ripple effect of all these other people that suddenly feel comfortable saying, you know what, I'm also really struggling, and I don't know what I'm doing and it's okay.
00:38:52:17 - 00:39:09:07
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
It's totally okay. No one knows everything. You, kind of - I think it's very important to sort of hammer this point for any person starting anything new, whether it's a new job, a new program that you don't need to know everything. It's okay. You're not - you know, you're not “not smart”. It's fine. You will get it. But give yourself a chance.
00:39:09:07 - 00:39:14:02
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Maria, that was your feedback. So, thank you for that.
00:39:14:04 - 00:39:39:17
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Yeah. I mean, I always told students in lectures that asking questions doesn't show ignorance. It shows that you're interested, and you want to learn. I've always loved it when students ask questions. I think it shows that they're engaged. And I often used to tell students that, quite truthfully, I have seen some really eminent scientists asking some really stupid questions. So, you know, it doesn't matter.
00:39:39:17 - 00:39:48:22
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Nobody judges you if you say, “Sorry, I didn't really understand that.” “Can you explain X, Y, or Z?” It just shows you want to know which is good.
00:39:48:24 - 00:40:00:22
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah. And what I learned from my experience in the program is whenever you have a question, it doesn't matter how stupid it may sound. Somebody else would have that exact same question. They're just not ready to ask yet.
00:40:00:24 - 00:40:19:11
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Very true. I remember when I first started my PhD, I used to attend seminars where they brought guest lecturers to give us talks about things, and I would always have questions, but I would be so shy and so apprehensive to raise my hand and ask them. Until I noticed there was this other very senior professor that would raise his hand and ask the exact same question I had.
00:40:19:11 - 00:40:43:00
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And I'm like “Hmm, if he is wondering the same thing, then surely, I'm on to something.” And then eventually I gained some more confidence, and I started raising my hand. And then later, much later on, I'll give shout out to Dr. Paul Maines, who was a professor, and we used to work in the same lab. And he once walked up to me and said, you know, when you attend lectures, students’ participation is different because they see, you know, you put yourself out there and you ask questions.
00:40:43:00 - 00:40:58:16
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, they're more encouraged to do it. So, you know, this is another piece of advice to whomever wants to join the program in the future is - be curious. Ask questions, make a fool of yourself. It's okay. And I promise you, you will survive, and it will be okay. And you might encourage other people too, who may be shy.
00:40:58:21 - 00:41:19:07
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah. And I think the staff really creates a welcoming environment for questions and this type of discussions. And so pretty soon I was able to sort of get over my fear of asking questions. And I just ask questions all the time. I might have asked too many questions. Gerhard what do you want to say?
00:41:19:07 - 00:41:40:05
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Good to hear that that you said that staff. Generate that environment. Because that, I think, is one of the most important jobs for us. Never mind all the teaching of facts and stuff. It's the making students feel welcome and included and encouraged to do their best here. I was going to share an anecdote from my life. As Tian said earlier, I did an MSc in Information Technology.
00:41:40:05 - 00:42:06:11
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
That was while I was working already as a lecturer at Glasgow University. So, I was in my early 40s at that point. And like with all other master's programs, the vast majority of students at that time, in my year, also were just freshly graduated from their computing science or whatever programs. So, I was significantly older, what we would call more mature in that class.
00:42:06:11 - 00:42:28:22
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
But I also obviously didn't care anymore about losing my face, so I was always the one who had my hands up and asked questions. And many of the other students in the program had, at some point during the year, said to me that they were always glad when I was in the lecture because I would ask all the questions that they already had.
00:42:28:24 - 00:42:34:10
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
What do we learn from this? You're never the only one who has a question.
00:42:34:12 - 00:42:36:05
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
But you just have to build up the courage.
00:42:36:07 - 00:43:00:00
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
[Gerhard: Yeah, yeah.] It takes that one person to do it right. [Maria: Yeah.] Since we're touching on the amount of things that were, that was taught in the program, Maria mentioned, like, now with better technology, we're able to collect bigger data sets. So, a lot of the lab technique has become data analysis. Do you see that as a challenge of the course going forward?
00:43:00:00 - 00:43:16:01
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Because people need to know how the basic technique works before moving on to data analysis. But as now there's a bigger emphasis on data, do you worry about the data analysis sort of overshadowing the understanding of the basic molecular techniques?
00:43:16:03 - 00:43:52:03
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
I would say that many of the new techniques, the sophisticated technologies, they're mostly relying on putting together older techniques. So, for example, if you’re thinking about next generation sequencing. There are various steps and they're using hybridization, the use of DNA polymerases and various basic techniques that can influence the outcome. So, when you're looking at the results, sometimes what you think the results are, there is an issue with them that goes back to an underlying limitation of one of the techniques that are put together.
00:43:52:05 - 00:44:21:21
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
In order to get the correct interpretation of that data, you need to be aware of how that data was generated and which techniques were used, and what the limitations of those techniques are. So that, for example, if you didn't find a particular variant present, well, maybe when you were doing the amplification of the library, something about that stage has not amplified the section of DNA that would have the variant that you were looking for.
00:44:21:21 - 00:44:55:13
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, you need to understand how the libraries are generated for the next generation sequencing and the limitations of all those technologies. Again, something like MS-MLPA, which is looking at methylation status of DNA. This puts together basic technologies of PCR amplification, restriction enzyme digestion. And again, I think in order to understand that technique, you need to understand all those basic individual technologies, even before you look at these massive data sets and try and analyse them.
00:44:55:13 - 00:45:02:18
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
You do need to understand the core methodologies and the limitations of those core methodologies
00:45:02:20 - 00:45:19:02
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Yeah, it kind of goes back to your comment about people using kits now - mostly to extract DNA and whatnot. But I mean, do we actually know what's in these enzymes and what are the steps doing? So, you know, you're breaking up the cell, you're breaking up the nuclear membrane, and then you're releasing the DNA and you're making sure that it's okay.
00:45:19:07 - 00:45:41:19
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
But you need to have these basic understandings, because if at the end product you don't get DNA, then why didn't you get DNA? What step of the way did it mess up, right? So those are really important questions, to sort of, I think it kind of hammers home the fact that we need to understand the basics first before we go on to applying those very fancy genetic techniques and okay, well, what do you do with the data afterwards or the lack thereof?
00:45:41:21 - 00:45:43:03
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Why didn't you get data? Right?
00:45:43:03 - 00:46:09:04
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Exactly. So, if you're troubleshooting your results, what's gone wrong. You can't do that unless you understand exactly how that data was generated, what was done and what might have gone wrong in each of those steps. And you can look back at that with understanding and you can troubleshoot. If you have no understanding of how that data was generated, you cannot troubleshoot that effectively.
00:46:09:06 - 00:46:22:12
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
So, one thing Rasha and I both remember really fondly is the amount of quality feedback we get from the work we do, from the courses. How important is student feedback, in your opinion?
00:46:22:18 - 00:46:38:09
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And I wanted to sort of emphasize the fact that the feedback in the master's program was kind of both ways, at least in my year, you know. Maria, I think you had a - maybe it was the first time you implemented that students also give feedback about what they want or the experiment or assignment that they did.
00:46:38:11 - 00:46:59:22
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And I thought that was really beautiful. But then there was also a lot of opportunity for feedback in the assessment from the students to students themselves. So how did this person act and react within, like the group or team work environments in the PBL, for example? So, we kind of evaluated each other. So, it wasn't only where the instructors were evaluating us and giving us feedback and go “You need to improve on 1, 2 or 3.”
00:47:00:03 - 00:47:12:02
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
But we - also you were also very curious and keen on learning about what we thought about things. And also how did we work with each other. So, I think for us, I really value this, this feedback.
00:47:12:04 - 00:47:35:10
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah. And for me it's really important because I learned how to critique something properly - like without especially - like I find that super useful in my later years teaching how to like, make constructive feedback without putting the other person's work down so they can absorb the feedback readily. And that sort of becomes a very important tool in my kit for teaching, which I sort of gathered from my master's.
00:47:35:10 - 00:47:38:10
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
yeah. I just want to hear your thoughts on it.
00:47:38:13 - 00:48:11:01
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Yeah. So, I became aware, I guess, reading literature or going to seminars on education that when you give feedback or when you're giving feedback to students, it's quite good to not only have a list of things they can improve on, but also to say, what was good about this piece of work? We developed a feedback proforma, which would start with 2 or 3 things that were good about the work, and then give 2 or 3 points for improvement of the work.
00:48:11:03 - 00:48:35:10
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
As Tian said I think it's very important that these are constructive points. So not just “This was terrible”, which isn't very useful at all, but, well, you know, “You haven't really gone into this enough”. And I think what you need to do is think more about this data and what are the limitations of the data. So, you've interpreted the data, correctly.
00:48:35:10 - 00:49:04:06
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
But you haven't identified that there are other possible explanations. I think that, that's one thing to make sure that you're getting positive points as well as points for improvement. It's actually quite challenging to look at the piece of student work sometimes and think, well, how could this student improve that work? But as Rasha mentioned, one of the things we started doing, and maybe this was around the time Rasha joined us, was to get the students to provide a short reflection on the feedback.
00:49:04:12 - 00:49:23:11
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
They would say, if you critiqued a particular aspect of the work, they might say, “oh, yeah”. And actually, one thing I really always remember is when I'd read a report and I thought, you know, there's a lot of good stuff in here, but it really doesn't hang together. So, it's like chunks. There's one good chunk here.
00:49:23:11 - 00:49:42:19
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And then then we go to another chunk here and then another chunk there. And it really needs to be more a coherent whole. And so, I said something to that effect in feedback. And the student in their reflection said, “oh, you know what? I know why that is. And what I did was I, you know, I have a job, I work in the evenings.”
00:49:42:19 - 00:50:11:18
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
“So, I would do a chunk of this assignment and then put it away, and then I'd come back and do another chunk of the assignment, and then I'd come back and do another chunk of the assignment. And of course, what I forgot to do was then go through it all and tie it all together”. That feedback that I gave her had allowed her to recognize that deficiency in what she'd generated, and to recognize that if you do work in something in chunks, you still got to go back and see how it all works together before submitting it.
00:50:11:18 - 00:50:39:05
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And that actually was one of our distinction students. So not necessarily just the weaker students are using the feedback, but all the students can benefit from feedback. So, asking the students to reflect on the feedback made them really take it on board. I think, that they needed to read through it and think about what it was about their approach that led to the particular situation we’d identified, and maybe they can rectify that.
00:50:39:11 - 00:51:06:12
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Something else I think both Tian and Rasha mentioned is critiquing or giving constructive critique to other students, which of course, the students are doing as part of their case investigations, which uses problem-based learning. And the students have to generate group reports. And as part of that, they each write sections and they're giving each other feedback. And that's a really important thing to learn how to give feedback, how to evaluate work.
00:51:06:12 - 00:51:17:22
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And I think in evaluating other people's work, you can also learn a lot, again, about what works well and how to write yourself by thinking critically about somebody else's work.
00:51:17:24 - 00:51:37:09
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Absolutely. Because I also want to mention that when the students give feedback to the staff, the staff actually listened. So, one of the things I remember from my year is, there were two assignments that were - two like fairly big assignments - due around the same time. And just from the student feedback, the teaching staff realized that they were way too close.
00:51:37:09 - 00:51:58:13
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
And to just make student life better, we postponed one of the assignments. And that was just from gatherings or feedback from students. And it's kind of rare for the teaching staff to make that change in the middle of the year, just to accommodate students, to make the students life better. I just want to mention that. Gerhard, do you have anything else to add?
00:51:58:15 - 00:52:30:02
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I think about it from the point of view of assessment. Students come to do an undergraduate program or a postgraduate program, and they expect to leave the program at the end with a particular qualification. And, to uphold academic standards, universities then try to ensure that, yes, we can give this student this qualification. They have achieved all the learning outcomes that, that are required for this qualification.
00:52:30:03 - 00:52:58:22
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
So, the assessment is what drives all of the teaching and what drives student learning, I think. But you can't see assessment on its own in an isolated way because students will always ask “Why did I get this particular grade for this particular work?” So that's where the feedback comes in. My view is that feedback on its own, on a particular piece of work is a bit pointless, because it's like closing the door after the horse has bolted.
00:52:58:24 - 00:53:34:01
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Feedback has to be feed-forward as well. And this is where I think our program is very good, in that the assignments we have over the year are not all sorts of different types of assignment - do one assignment of this class, and then forget about it - do a different one there. The assignments follow a certain trajectory, and the feedback that a student gets for their first assignment has to be taken by the student as feed-forward for the next assignment.
00:53:34:01 - 00:54:06:00
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And for us as teachers, that's what Maria said earlier. We can't just be critical, we can't just say that was rubbish. You have to say also, here is a way of improving this particular piece of work. And if students take that feedback on board and act on it, then they are almost guaranteed to improve in a similar situation. So, that's where this reflective piece of writing that Maria and Rasha were referring to comes in, because - that - the philosophy behind that one is that students simply have to read their feedback.
00:54:06:06 - 00:54:30:07
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
There's too much evidence out there that many, many students, certainly in undergraduate programs, would not be that interested in the feedback of a particular assignment. Look at the grade, put it aside, and work on the next thing - because they're so unlinked to each other. So, there's this feedback that I get for my first piece of work. If it's meaningless to my next piece of work because it's a completely different piece of work, why would I bother with that?
00:54:30:07 - 00:55:01:08
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
So, that's where these kind of little bits of carrots that one puts into the program, like you get a few brownie points for writing a reflective piece of work about that feedback - that encourages students to actually engage with the feedback and use it for the next time. I think this is something where our program should be proud of. And I think when I'm reading the written work of students from different programs in our college, at the end of the academic year. So, master's dissertations, that kind of stuff.
00:55:01:08 - 00:55:18:06
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
I do feel that we are doing a good job at training our students to become good communicators, science communicators, and I see differences to other programs in the same college. I don’t want to diss the others though.
00:55:18:08 - 00:55:41:22
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
I'll just that's what you said. Gerhard, is of course, as part of that reflective piece, the students are asked to generate a clear action plan. So, you know, 3, 4 or 5 bullet points of what they will do next time in order to generate a better report. Sometimes this was just, “well, I need to plan out my work better”.
00:55:41:22 - 00:56:03:19
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
“So, I don't end up trying to do it all in the last day”. Or it might be “I need to find more relevant literature. “So, I need to check more carefully that the literature is relevant to what the question is about, or the problem is about”. But actually, getting them to generate an action plan of what they will do differently based on the feedback of that previous report.
00:56:03:22 - 00:56:23:03
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yeah, but even there are different stages, aren't there? Because there's one thing reading the feedback and accepting, yeah, okay, I should have started working a bit earlier on this and not left it to the last minute. And then writing in the action plan that I should plan my work better. That is not really a plan, is it?
00:56:23:05 - 00:56:48:21
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Telling yourself, “Yeah, I should be planning this better”. [Maria: “Oh yes, I will!”] Yeah, but what I always look for is what are you actually going to do? I know I look for stuff like “I'm going to put into my diary two weeks before the deadline, start work now, and I block out certain times in my diaries”. So, you know, like the kind of actual things that one can do to force oneself to avoid procrastinating.
00:56:49:08 - 00:57:04:24
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
On that topic, I heard a silly story recently. They're saying, there are three pigeons and there is a tiger that wants to charge and eat the pigeons. One of the pigeons says, “I will fly”, and the other two pigeons say, “they decide they're going to fly”. Which of the pigeons get eaten?
00:57:05:19 - 00:57:31:20
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, the answer is all of them, right? Like, unless you do that thing, you're going to get eaten right? So yeah. Anyway, that's a silly example. But I keep thinking about it and like, yeah, you can't decide, and you can't say you will do it, but unless you do it, then that's the only way you're going to see the action. So that's wonderful. And I mean, I want to tell you also that the quality of the feedback, kind of also, the ripple effect of that goes very wide in terms of the way we critically look at any piece of information in real life.
00:57:31:22 - 00:57:58:05
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, for us, it's kind of like second nature when you look at any study or any, piece in the news, for example, you find a lot of misinformed opinions about things, but for us, it's very quick to say, oh no, like this doesn't make sense because 1, 2, 3. But you kind of have to go through this exercise of, accepting feedback and going through and thinking critically and applying the advice that you get to get to the stage where it's kind of like second nature to you, that's all.
00:57:58:11 - 00:58:19:09
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
Or information that's irrelevant or things that are useful. You know, you take that in. And on that point, I wanted to also ask in terms of evaluating students and sort of thinking about how the students are performing. So, besides exam performance, for example, what are key indicators for you that students are engaged and they're successful and they're doing what they're supposed to?
00:58:19:11 - 00:58:55:06
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
I would say the students that are engaged are the ones who are asking a lot of questions in lectures. In the student group sessions, they're the ones who are often leading the discussions, giving the group some direction. And those are the students who generally end up performing the best, you know, not exclusively. There are some students who are much more quiet by nature, but often the ones who do the best are the ones who really are clearly actively engaged in all the activities.
00:58:55:11 - 00:59:20:20
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
Yeah, I agree with that. Asking questions demonstrates thinking about a topic and contributing to the discussion. Even asking, again, asking questions right in a in a small group teaching these problem-based learning groups, those students who ask questions and say, see, I don't actually get it. Why are we doing this now and actually express their uncertainty. They are the ones who benefit most from it.
00:59:21:00 - 00:59:40:14
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
But as Maria says, there are always quieter ones who are not that outgoing in a group. But it's too easy to be shy, actually, and not ask questions. And I think it can be problematic for students who fall behind because they are not constantly questioning what's going on.
00:59:40:16 - 01:00:05:03
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And I think it's a matter of confidence isn’t it. And hopefully, again, as is one of the objectives of what we're trying to do, I think we're trying to build the students confidence in speaking and discussing science and asking questions. And I remember several times I've been in a problem-based learning group. They suddenly go off in the wrong direction and you're thinking, “Gosh, I will intervene.?”
01:00:05:03 - 01:00:35:06
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
And one lone voice pipes up and says “Sorry, shouldn’t we be doing that instead?” And you're thinking, “yes, yes.” You can’t obviously say anything but you’re thinking,” Yes, yes, you've got it, you've got it.” And eventually that small lone voice has to try and convince the others to maybe, turn around and go back. And again, I think that's part of what the problem-based learning experience is trying to teach students. To give them that confidence, to actually say, “look, stop, everyone.”
01:00:35:12 - 01:00:54:08
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
“Can we look at this again” or “Are we going off the wrong way?” That's useful when these guys are going off into jobs, working as part of a team in their job, they should have the confidence to say “Hello, maybe we should try this, or have we thought about doing that?” yeah. So, I think that's a very important part of what we're trying to do.
01:00:54:10 - 01:01:32:19
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
It's interesting, these small group things, these problem-based learning group, that was new to me when I joined the Medical Genetics team. I was used to teaching fairly large groups of undergraduate students. So, because of staff student ratios, numbers, simply, it wasn't really a particularly viable option to have a very small group teaching. Certainly, in Dundee, I feel now these small group PBL things, one of the biggest advantages of doing this, is it generates a safe environment where these smaller groups of students realize nobody's out there to mock them, to laugh about them, to criticize them.
01:01:32:21 - 01:02:01:00
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
They can develop at their own pace. They can demonstrate their lack of understanding at a certain point without being shot down. It also works for us, as teachers, I think, we have a chance to demonstrate that we're only just human beings as well and not there to criticize students. So, I think that helps everyone to develop that confidence to state their opinions, to question themselves and others in a safe space.
01:02:01:00 - 01:02:01:08
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
01:02:01:14 - 01:02:22:02
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
In the benefit of those who are listening to our podcast today, in case you don't know what a PBL is, maybe we'll break it down for them. From our perspective as students Tian. So, for me, what I remember PBL was okay, we had nine PBLs, so we had quite a few. I think. And so, we were whenever a PBL was due. So, we would be assigned a case.
01:02:22:02 - 01:02:41:01
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, we would be given a sheet of paper with a problem set. So, the problem could be - you know you have - you are a genetic counsellor. And you see this family and this family is presented with x genetic disease and or they may not tell us what the genetic disease is, but they, this is the symptoms that they're experiencing.
01:02:41:01 - 01:02:57:14
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
This happened in their family in this family. So, and these are the available genetic data that you have. Or maybe sometimes you need to request genetic tests. And you can't - It's kind of back and forth where we have to go back to the instructors, and they send us the results. So, it was really like simulating real life experience.
01:02:57:15 - 01:03:15:11
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, in the student groups, we would assign someone to be a leader, someone to be a scribe. So, someone would be taking notes, someone would look at the phenotype or the clinical symptoms and say, “Okay, well, they're presented with, you know, problems with their kidneys or brain or this or that, and it's only presenting in the mothers and the son. So, it must be this type of genetic inheritance pattern.”
01:03:15:12 - 01:03:29:05
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And then when we look at it and then we decide, “okay, well it sounds like it could be this. So, this is the test we should request.” So, we go back to the staff and say, “well this is the test we want.” And maybe they have the data, maybe they don't.
01:03:29:05 - 01:03:52:14
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
And then they tell us “This is ...” and so they send us the results. And then with the results, then we go on to analyse them and we make sure, “Okay, well what is it. Did we find the answer we're looking for?" And then we write a report. So, it is really involved. And you know, like Maria mentioned earlier, if you're the lone person in a group of nine that has a different opinion, you really have to convince the others that this is what you want to do, or this is how we should go.
01:03:52:14 - 01:04:11:21
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
So, your decision and the way you're steering the group is going to affect everyone's grade and everyone's performance. And ultimately what your conclusion is on this genetic disease. It is really fun, also, very nerve wracking, but a lot of fun. And at the end you also present your findings. So, it's kind of cool did I capture it well, Tian?
01:04:12:02 - 01:04:32:10
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah, I think so. And I think, through just this sort of very - it's like a problem-solving process where everybody in the group needs to contribute their knowledge. I think it's really; it’s also sort of - build a lot of friendship and build a lot of relationships. So, I remember our group, actually got along really well.
01:04:32:10 - 01:04:51:19
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
And Saeeda lovingly named our group “Team Smiles”. Just in that group, we get to spend so much time together, there were like, after PBL activities, we will go out for, like, drinking and fun activities. So, it's really, it's not just building knowledge, it's also building relationships. I just really want to add that.
01:04:51:21 - 01:04:56:15
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
It does help to have snacks as you're, going through the process.
01:04:56:17 - 01:04:59:02
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
We had snacks, the whole time.
01:04:59:04 - 01:05:01:02
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
All the time. Yeah.
01:05:01:04 - 01:05:29:24
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Last question before the break would be what's sort of next? And how do you see the program in the future years? [Gerhard: I think the program needs to keep adapting to the changes in health care systems, but it also needs to adapt to the changing expectations of students, what they want from a master's program. To some extent, we need to remain competitive against other master's programs.
01:05:30:01 - 01:05:57:13
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
That's the way that these programs are. And in the UK, higher education market, they're virtually commodities. And then students have choices. And so, we need to ensure that guys like you who have completed the program, go away with a great opinion. At the moment, I have to admit, I don't see any real need to make changes to the structure and the content of the program.
01:05:57:15 - 01:06:24:16
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
The aspects that we need to always keep in mind is the changing groupings in our students. We are now attracting a much, much more diverse and international group of students. For virtually everyone, English is not their native language, and these are the kinds of things that we need to work with. The big challenge, in my view, is artificial intelligence.
01:06:24:18 - 01:06:53:08
Speaker 4 - Dr. Gerhard May
And I have to admit, to my shame, I really don't know enough about it. I've been sticking my head in the sand about this. We are telling our students, don't do it, basically. But do we have any way of identifying assignments that have been completed with the use of artificial intelligence? I don't think so. So, it's, I think where we are, this is a new thing that that will continue rumbling for a while I think.
01:06:53:10 - 01:07:24:11
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Yeah, I think that's a challenge that faces all sort of all sectors of education - I guess. From my personal perspective, I find, they're really good at polishing your work - to be like virtually free of grammatical errors. For like a person with English as a second language - that might be a really helpful tool. But obviously, when once you sort of moving into the category of letting the AI generate content for you, instead of putting your own thoughts into it, that becomes a problem for students.
01:07:24:15 - 01:08:01:18
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
Quite Interesting. One of our graduates is now working in the clinical genetics laboratory. He was saying that one of his colleagues had actually asked an AI program to evaluate a particular variant in DNA, and the AI came up with an interpretation - evaluation for this variant. But it turned out that it was taken from one source and really the evaluation was not particularly in detail or even particularly correct or useful.
01:08:01:20 - 01:08:25:16
Speaker 3 - Dr. Maria Jackson
So, I told him his job was safe for the foreseeable future. I don't know that AI is quite as good as people yet. From what he was saying, it wasn't, generating something which would gain an A-grade. It might, gain a C grade perhaps, but, you know, without the insights of someone who really understood the problem.
01:08:25:18 - 01:08:37:04
Speaker 2 -Dr. Rasha Sabouny
I don't think it has the mechanics to think about, feedback that’s not good. It's not going to be relevant any time. who knows, but ...
01:08:37:06 - 01:09:08:05
Speaker 1 - Dr. Tian Zhao
Okay. So that concludes the first half of this podcast about the University of Glasgow's Medical Genetics and Genomics program. In part two, we'll dive into student life, the program's strong commitment to culture, diversity and its inclusive environment.